Negotiation is part of our daily lives and definitely necessary each time you move your desk – upleveling your work where you are or seeking opportunities elsewhere. Tune in to see what you may need to keep in mind and how a simple orange can teach us value lessons for future negotiations.
Episode 17 Show Notes
- The Negotiation Toolkit by Roger J. Volkema – https://amzn.to/36iWuIs
- Sample Negotiation Framework (your factors/other party factors) –
Episode 17 Script
This is Rebecca Clark. Episode 17 Negotiation Frameworks This’ll Podcast is for anyone that knows they haven’t yet found and offered up their best work but are compelled to seek it out and do it. Are you ready to move your dust? Go shooting is something that each of you will do at some point in the process of moving your desk. Whether it’s internal at the organization you’re already in, we’re moving to another organization. Or maybe if you embrace a career change of some sort. In fact, the hardest negotiations will often occur in your own mind. And so regardless of your current work situation, it’s valuable to visit or revisit ways of negotiating so that when you are participating in some kind of negotiation, it’s a win win, and you can all feel good about it. Now. I don’t hold a corner on the market of negotiating, but I do have some experience, and I was very lucky to have a father who had some sales experience that he shared with us growing up. And so when I entered into my first official job negotiation, I did have a little bit of knowledge in my head about how I should deal with it, even if that knowledge was very amateur at that time, it still put me in a position to have a conversation with the people that were hiring me, and I’ve mentioned this in another podcast episode. But this was a job to be a floating administrative assistant at Ernst and Young and coming into that negotiation, when they offered what they offered, I realized a couple of things. First of all, how wonderful it was that I was offered a job and secondly, that it was a job that was not in an area I was trained to perform. And so I was fully aware I had information telling me that they were taking a chance on hiring me as well because I did not fit their regular criteria. And so in that negotiation, when I asked for more and they said they couldn’t give more, except that I needed to take special note that I had a salary plus an overtime option. I remember sitting back and going, You know what? I’ve already gotten what I wanted. I wanted a job and I wanted it in a field where I was being given a chance to do something new. I’ve already got what I wanted and Ari no, they took a chance. I can accept this right now and I think I even asked if we could re negotiate after a few months and of course they said yes. Now I am very grateful that they actually meant it when they said Yes, because I would say most of the time you would want to spend your time on the negotiation right up front because if it’s not in writing and it’s not up front, it’s not happening most of the time. But a few months later, when a recruiting coordinator position opened up and I expressed interest in that opportunity, it gave me a chance to revisit a negotiation and to be able to say Hey, I have now been at this organization and performed well for a few months. I would like to have a bump in my salary and I got a bump in my salary and I think it was five or $6000 that’s an important number as we go through this. I performed in that job for a little over a year and during that time I got connected to recruiters all over the world that were part of the organization, but also in lots of different kinds of recruiter situations, some that were high level headhunters, some that were working for temp agencies because we hired accountants for tax season and that kind of thing. And so I got to hear from a broad range them and got to know some of them well. And some of them started asking me, You know, Hey, are you looking for a job? And that’s when I started finding out a little bit more about what people were making that did what I did. And I started collecting that data and I put it in a spreadsheet and I gave it to my boss. I said, Hey, here’s people with similar skills and experiences to me that are operating in this role, and this is how much they’re getting paid. And they were getting paid a little bit more than I was. Where I perceived it is a lot more at that time, and I made my case, you know, that had loved to stay here and perform, but I’m also working with all these people that have better opportunities, and I received another five or $6000 raise after that occurred, I would need to look back at paperwork to see how many months it was. It was only a few when I realized it wasn’t just the money that I was seeking. I needed to try a different environment. I needed to have some growth in other areas, and so from a job fair where no one acted interested in me. Actually, I get a phone call and this is a job where I got hired because I had Ernst and young experience and because the boss highly valued what his wife did is a teacher. And so I was called in for an interview. I received a job offer to be a benefit specialist, and I pretty much chose to try to negotiate only a little up front to get a few 1000 more than what I was making. And I successfully did that. So I came in in a higher base salary than I had in the past and in three months into that job was a very busy job is the height of the dot com era. I heard there was an opening and recruiting, and I realize I’ve learned a lot in benefits. But benefits is not really my thing. And I inquired about the recruiting position and it was offered to me and they weren’t going to change the salary. And this time I said, Okay, wait a second. I’m going into this new role and I now have prior experience in recruiting more experience than I had in benefits. I realize I have a lot to learn to grow into this particular position, but I’m also bringing more to it than the position you hired me for and I got a $6000 bump in my salary. Now that job did not last very long, and I made a choice to leave because that’s when I was contemplating grad school and learning all these different skills. And so the next position I took was a different sort of negotiation, and I don’t know that I did a great job with that one or not. It was partial hourly work, partial commission and then I went into graduate school coming out of graduate school. I accepted another position at Ernst and Young at an hourly rate that was similar to what I had left it as a few years before. But I felt like, Oh, I’m new out of grad school. I don’t really know this new field, so I’m willing to accept this money. And it was supposed to only be for the summer, and during the time I was there, I had to create a classroom course because what they found is in the professional service is environment that those that were accountants and auditors weren’t necessarily good negotiating. And so they wanted to give them a course kind of in entry level course into negotiation that would help them as they had these discussions with clients. And if you’ve been to any sales training, I’ve only been to a limited amount. There’s all these tactics and these methods and all of these things, and it’s kind of overwhelming if you don’t consider yourself a sales person. And yet all of us are. We all negotiate every day with ourselves with a significant other with a child with someone at work with people at the grocery store with someone at the gas station at the park. I’d negotiate the other day and I wanted to walk his dog around the turf of the soccer field. Right when I decided that we were going to use it and to negotiate that space. So we all negotiate far more than we think. But the minute we call it sails, it gets a little scary for some of us. So here I am. I’m told that I’m going to create this negotiation course. I’m kind of this unsupervised interns, so to speak, right? Like we need this course. No one has time. We’re all doing all this stuff of Rebecca. Here, go take this book, read it and create a course from it. And it was just a one or two day course. It might have just even been a one day course I thinking Oh, wow. What did I get into now? The book I was given was called the Negotiation tool kit. How to get exactly what you want in any business or personal situation by Roger J. Volk. Emma and I wanted to add a note here that we did get permission from Roger to use the book with the course and create the course. If you have never read this book, please get it. So I start working on this course, and I want to share a few thoughts related to this and and related to my experiences. So Roger decides that negotiation is a communication between two or more parties to determine the nature of a future behavior. And like I said, these happen all the time everywhere, and some people can talk about it. Being bargaining. Bargaining is a subcategory of negotiation, and it’s primarily if you are dealing with one issue for example, cost and bargaining. We can often think like if you’re on a vacation or something, and you’re sitting there trying to bargain with someone that’s selling some kind of tourist trap item. The only thing you can bargain with is really the money factor, because this isn’t a person you’re probably gonna interact with again. It’s not like you can trade. I don’t know. Maybe you could trade food for whatever trinket or something like that. But it’s It’s primarily just a one issue negotiation, and you don’t really want a one issue negotiation. You need to have more issues, and most negotiations actually have far more than one issue, so that’s not a bargaining situation. The trouble is that some of us view some situations as a bargaining situation, and we don’t realize that more is negotiable than meets the eye. But there are a few factors to consider. So, for example, successful negotiation begins with the belief that everything is negotiable, and we need to be able to recognize when it is appropriate to negotiate and use our emotional intelligence. So the example I used with my first salary job you understanding that it was important for me not to push that negotiation too hard because I had already been granted really the privilege that I wanted, which was a chance to step out into something new, that I couldn’t claim any experience in and be given a chance. And then, after being given a chance, being able to know that I could negotiate. Now, why would anyone want to negotiate with you? Well, Roger talks about the golden rule of negotiation, which is people will not negotiate with you unless they believe you can help them or hurt them. And so we have to know our place in a negotiation as well. I wanted to share what Roger offers up three questions that are fundamental to negotiation and one is to know what you want and be firm and flexible with that most the time. We don’t just want one thing, and some issues air more important than others and being willing to be that firm but flexible throughout the negotiation. You know, as an example of this knowing that if you want to sell your house, you’re most likely wanting to sell your house for a certain price and be able to sell it by a certain date, So there’s multiple factors to consider. And so these are things that are important factors to write down and think through before you even inter negotiation. And at the beginning of my work career salary was it? I was just concerned about salary. I wanted to be able to claim I had a high salary, and the wonderful part of that first job with Ernst and Young is it wasn’t a great salary, and yet they gave me wonderful benefits and wonderful training opportunities and great job experience and exposed me to so much information. So many people and some travel that that’s where I learned Wow, wait a second. It’s not all about the salary. There are all of these other things I care about and are interested in. Besides the money now you need to make a certain amount so that you feel like you can actually, you know, operate from a place where you have food, clothing and shelter and a book or a hamburger once in a while, her some kind of treat. But coming to grips with what you want is something that we learn over time. And so that’s why whenever you hear this and you decide to sit down and do this exercise for yourself, you may recognize that you have different factors than you had even two or three years ago because our needs change. Like, right now, I have no interest in a job where I would travel because I am not interested in leaving my family for long periods of time. Just not interested. I don’t care how much you’re paying. I’m not interested right now in a year or two, I don’t know. But it depends, right? It all depends on how it’s framed and what kind of combination of factors that are involved. So what do you want to get really clear on what you think you want question to toe ask ourselves, Why should they negotiate with you? It’s kind of like the golden rule and look at all of the factors that they would be thinking about when they come to negotiate with you. This is really important. I know there have been some times where I’ve been on the hiring end, and people are really going hard negotiating, trying to get to super high salary compared to what is listed as an opportunity in the job posting. And they don’t realize that they might have made it to the top, but that we would be equally happy with two or three of the other of the candidates. And if they don’t know that information that puts them at risk at losing the negotiation, there’s not gonna be a win win. Maybe because they’re not thinking through Wait a second. Let me look at it from the employer’s perspective. And number three, what are your best alternatives to a negotiated agreement? This is called Batmunkha. Have you heard of that before? I’m sure some of you have heard of batting A. So this is just a reminder. Most the time when you go into negotiation. The person that has the least to lose is probably gonna be the most calm in the negotiation, right, because they have got other options that they can go, too, if the negotiation doesn’t go right. And that’s why it’s been comforting when I’ve had two or three job offers at once in the past at the same time to build it, sit back and go. Okay, let me take a look at each of these. What has the right combination for me, which is the one where I’m going to spend the most time negotiating? And then, as you’re talking to all the others, you know you already have in your hip pocket other options. Now this one’s very difficult if you’ve been jobless for a while or feel like you are underemployed because you’re not in the state of mind, perhaps to be able to think, Oh, I have other options because if you felt like you had other options, you would already be entertaining those options right and you would be doing them. And so this one can be very difficult. But it’s important to remember that the other end of the negotiation may have a lot more options than you have, so be mindful of that when you push for certain things in a negotiation. I know that when I was negotiating a position to be a production manager, I just sat and waited a few extra days because I had some other offers and I was still trying to figure out which offer would be the best for my future of what I wanted to focus on. And those few days of stillness and not responding to the communications I got from those that offered the position actually made them nervous. And they started emailing me and calling me. And that became very important information to me, because in that moment I realized, Wait a second. They don’t have as many options as I have. This puts me in a very good position for my negotiation, and I did negotiate five or 6000 more on that role. But notice out of a pattern that obviously I have some barriers toe work through because I have negotiated five or $6000 over initial offers consistently in at least five job negotiations over the years. But the first time I did that, I was making 30,000 and the last time I did that, I was making over 100,000. So percentage wise, it was a lower number. But I felt just a successful because in those later negotiations, I was also negotiating with a lot more factors to consider issues at stake because I cared about different things. I was already making a great salary. So when you have a great salary and you already have great benefits, you can start to say, Wait a second. What am I really seeking? Well, I want to grow. I want to have leadership responsibility. I want flexibility to work from where I need to work. Oh, good, This doesn’t travel. And that works perfectly for me right now. Oh, this is a good boss. Oh, I like these team members all these different factors because once you have some experience, you start to realize what you actually care about what makes you tick on a daily basis and helps you produce your best work. And so what puts us in a position to go into these negotiations and do well for ourselves and for the person or organization that we’re hoping to negotiate with is being ableto have information, information about ourselves and what we want an information about the other party. That means getting informed about what they’re working through and what they have to offer. What are their hang ups? What flexibility do they have? How desperate are they? What is a gap that they have that you can fill and so you can walk into these negotiations and have a win win at the end where you’re both walking away, feeling good now when I was a Ernst and Young and I feel like I’m bringing them up a lot, But I learned some valuable lessons there in this course that we created. We added another layer to win win because they weren’t interested in just when, when they were interested in what they called anchor relationships, which means we are not concerned with winning a negotiation. We’re concerned with creating a long term relationship with this group or this person or this organization, so that we can consistently have wind wins with them so they always want to come back to us because they know they will have this wonderful experience and high value added product or service. I really love that when I first heard it, because I thought you’re right because sometimes if we look at it like from the Stephen Covey emotional bank account thing, we can look at it. These deposits and, yes, they are kind of deposits. But it’s beyond that because at the end of the day, it isn’t just business. We’re human beings. We want each other to feel good about that negotiation going forward, where there will be no more negotiations. Or if we do negotiate, we will negotiate from the wrong mindset or approach. And that kind of gets into the favorite example that I wanted to share with you today because it’s all about position versus interest. And if you walk into a negotiation with a position, so it’s it’s an I need. Well, it’s actually and I want this, but recover it by saying, Well, I need this, And if you walk into a negotiation thinking that way, you know it’s almost like your arms are folded like I’m not gonna go till I get this this thing that I want to need. But if we go in from the perspective of hey, I’ve got these things, I’m interested in achieving, and so is this person or organization. Maybe we can have a conversation to find out more about what each other needs, and we can come to a mutually acceptable agreement. And regardless of whether a negotiation starts out from that position from either party, you can move it to that kind of conversation that is focused about an interest. What I loved about this book is there’s a story about the orange. It’s an actual exercise you’re supposed to do. And this orange is a great way to describe getting clear on people’s interest, being curious and asking more questions and finding out why they think they need something, because often we get some clarity, and we can take something as simple as an orange and find a way for it to meet multiple needs. So there are two roommates, and one of them is purchased oranges, and one of them is making a cake, and the one that purchased the oranges goes on. A run, comes back really excited. They’re going to have freshly squeezed orange juice after their run. The other one’s making their cake and they realize they want a citrus flavor to the cake and see the oranges. Or like ah ha, This meets my need, grabs the oranges so that when the person that’s been on the run that bought the oranges comes back, they see the other roommate standing at the counter about to use these oranges. A negotiation is going to start right now. Both of these humans would like to use thes oranges. If you enter this negotiation from a position standpoint, you’re both going to say I need the oranges. But what if we step back and say, Well, wait a second. Why do you want thes oranges? You find out that this person wants to make a cake, and they’d like to have a citrus flavor in it. The other person wants a glass of orange juice to replenish their body and to just feel refreshed after their run. And this exercise helps people go through and think through different points of view. So the runner and the cake maker both have to think through How can they help the other person? How can they hurt them? How can that person help us? So once you stop and start asking questions and find out this person wants flavor in the cake, and this person wants freshly squeezed orange juice. Information becomes very important because some people may know that orange peels could add some of the flavor that the cake maker wanted. And so suddenly you have this capability to use the same orange for different purposes. And so in actuality, nothing gets wasted. Where’s before something might have gotten wasted. The cake person may have wasted the actual orange, and the runner may have wasted the peels, but they figure out a way to look at the whole situation differently. And this whole orange ends up providing value to two different people in two different ways. And they would not find this out unless they ask more questions and notice how this isn’t possible. If neither of them understand that the peel could be valuable enough for the goal that the cake maker is trying to achieve when it comes to negotiating, it is worth taking a little time to find out some of this information. So you walk in prepared for yourself but also prepared to ask questions to find out a little bit more information from the person that you’re going to negotiate with. So I had a lot of fun learning when I created this course. There’s a lot more in the negotiation tool kit book about different, desirable in undesirable behaviors. Different negotiation styles, risks in negotiations. There’s a lot more to it. But when I created that course, I was at the organization long enough to go see it piloted and then a month after that, send and asked for feedback. And it was amazing to see that after one day of learning some negotiation skills, there was over a $1,000,000 identified as extra negotiated money or products or service is, I should say, as a result of them taking that pilot course because the concepts in it, first of all, are so very clearly explained by Roger Vole comma, but also because there were so many missed opportunities in their day to day work that they were suddenly aware of. And guess what? After about a month or so after I created the course very soon after receiving that feedback, I had someone call me and say, I found your resume online, and I’d be very interested in talking to you. They found my graduate portfolio. Actually, I hadn’t even applied to the job, which kind of was good information for me to know, right, because I know that someone’s out seeking. They find me and they’ve specifically are now recruiting me. And they made an offer and I came back to them and said Listen, I was hoping for a little bit more, but I understand that I’m fairly new out of grad school. This is like four or five months after grad school. So I understand I made a career change and everything, so I get that. But I am curious to see if I could also use some of these other project management skills I have in this position and take on some additional responsibilities to warrant a slightly higher salary than this. I’d be really interested to talk to you about that, to see if that’s a possibility, because I I can see I like your benefits and I’m grateful for the offer. I really think the team would be great toe work with. Still, I’d I’d like to look at taking on some additional responsibilities so that I could get a slightly higher offer and they gave me a slightly higher offer so I’m trying to be a living example of the things I share because as I set up front, I am not this amazing sales person or negotiator. But I do have some experiences for every example you give me that you say it won’t work or it’s not possible. I can give you a lot more to show that it is possible. Maybe I’m a unique woman and just don’t realize it. But I have successfully been able to negotiate many jobs, and I did it from spending some time to sit down and think of what I really wanted. Think of it from their point of view on what they wanted and get information and then ask questions as part of the negotiation process, with the understanding that I might not be able to negotiate anything and it could hurt the negotiation if I took it too far. And every time I was able to come out with better outcomes than I was initially offered and then I made it a point to make sure that I offered back what I promised. Once I was in the roll, it wasn’t time to sit back and go well, I got here it was time to get to work, and hopefully most of them would be happy to have me back. Who knows? But this is something that I think is important to re look at every time you look for a job or a new opportunity in your organization and to understand the balance of what to ask for and what to wait on. Depending upon what’s going on and because I’m sharing this as a negotiation framework opportunity, I would love to suggest that would be great to take a piece of paper and start with the chart. Just draw big old table on the paper and start identifying across the top a list of factors or down the side. Whichever way you want to do it can be organic to how you think and put all those factors that you think you care about. And then, of course, identify what are the top factors in what are not. Because better to have one or two key factors that you really care about than a whole list of mediocrity. It gets really messy in the negotiation with that be very clear on what you’re top factors are to negotiate around, and then, along with those, you could create a row below it of that’s reserved for whomever you’re going to have the negotiation with. So you can start thinking about what they care about. And those factors maybe salary benefits. Training team. Who’s the boss where you expected toe work in the office or at home? Those kinds of things? What kind of equipment do they give you? Are the computers 10 years old? And how supportive are they thinking out of the box like as you get into more experience, you start caring about more how the leadership thinks and how they make their decisions. And I would add that how the negotiation goes is also a sign of how the organization works. And sometimes if I was actually elated with salary, I would still negotiate just to see what, how they thought if they thought things were negotiable or if they didn’t. Because it’s very telling and often tells you how the organization is working, or that at least tells you how the person operates that you’re negotiating with and take time to fill out that sheet for what you think the other party is worried about. they might be worried about financial, physical, emotional, all that they might be worried about. Benefits, training, all of those things. Maybe they need someone right away. Maybe they could wait Ah, month or two if it’s the right candidate. I know an organization that waited two months for a woman to come off of maternity leave, and they can’t believe they did it. But yet they found that she was extremely talented and provided great value to the organization for 10 years or more. It was worth waiting two months, wasn’t it? Okay, I hope this episode wasn’t all over the place, but I wanted to share that. It’s valuable to learn about negotiation. Practice negotiation in your day to day activities, practice at the restaurant. See if you can order something that’s not quite what the menu says and taking the time to sit down and create a little framework for yourself so that you prepare your mind and prepare yourself to think of what to ask those you’re negotiating with or what you have to research, and I’ll put a sample on the website in the episode notes. But of course it’s always great when you can create your own. Think of it as a framework. So you’ve got those factors in your head all the time. So you don’t get personally sidetracked or personally wowed by one little stray factor for a job that really isn’t right for you. Good luck negotiating and talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to another episode of the move your desk show. If you enjoyed listening, I would love if you would take the time to give a five star review and share the podcast with friends that are seeking to find and do their best.