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It’s always fun to get insights from people I coach. Especially if it’s someone that you’ve known your entire life.
This interview is with one of my brothers. He’s been making great strides in moving his desk these past few years and it’s been fun to see him keep growing.
Listen as he shares his desk moving experiences, insights from rugby, quotes from our Dad, and his approach to sales strategies, self-improvement, and passion/purpose.
And, though I edited this a lot, please excuse any sirens in the background. Ha. We had about four rounds of emergency vehicles going by my home as we recorded. No dull moments here.
Episode 63 Show Notes
- Simon Sinek – https://simonsinek.com/ – We both love Simon’s work!
- Good to Great by Jim Collins – https://www.jimcollins.com/article_topics/articles/good-to-great.html– mention of “getting people on the bus” and once on in the right seats.
Episode 63 Transcript
This is Rebecca Clark Episode 63. Desk Movers With Brett Clark
This podcast is for anyone that knows they haven’t yet found offered up professed work but are compelled to seek it out and do it. Are you ready to move your desk?
It was a pleasure to interview one of my brothers this past week because he’s made large strides and moving his desk at work, and I wanted him a chance to share some of the lessons he has learned over these past few years. It’s pretty funny, because about 20 years ago I was at home for a while working and he stuffed envelopes for me. And I remember the experience vividly because he wanted a raise after stuffing envelopes for one hour. But he is a go getter back then, and he is now. So take a listen. So I’ve obviously been at this company five years. My we’ve talked about that, and after the first year and 1/2 were at this transition point, we moved into a new office where it was a wide open roof was really interesting, because basically the whole office could be seen for any vantage point was just a wide open one level. That’s it. With very few individual offices, which were observed as conference rooms or for management. What they did was put these high walled cubicles two bays of them, if you will, down the middle, so that there was kind of thing inter part. So there’s like a central walkway where a lot of people could talk side by side and then outer part where you’re kind of isolated. And so you know how I know this goes into civilization theory or whatever. But being the humans that we are, we’ve got into the office. We immediately all packed in middle together, so we all were based not facing each other, but side by sides. We could easily just pop their heads out talk. I could literally rotate 90 degrees and talk to the guy just with desk right there. It was during this time I wouldn’t see my performance suffered, but if it was just kind of stacking, that’s when I got introduced to game of Thrones. So I I would have game of Thrones playing on one screen that I’d be trying to work on the other, and I’m doing air quotes here and I just I knew it was kind of dumb, but we’re all just kind of floating along, right? And I remember talking. My boss has become my mentor, you know, professionally. Basically the mentor that I have, I have a couple of people, obviously like yourself when I go to, but, uh, hey, I just had her office really close for happens, and I came and I said, Look, I’ve been a top performer. I work really hard. I want to move up. I want to become an enterprise, uh, sales person. Right now, I’m just a standard inside sales type person. And he said, You need to show the business. You show the leadership team that you’re serious about what you dio and he said, Bro, trust me, the best thing you could do he’s move your desk. No joke. So we means okay, like you need to physically isolate yourself sectors off Assad. He wasn’t doing that. You’re gonna separate your efforts from the perception that this team is lazy, that they don’t work as hard that they would rather this kind of chat and mingle. And that’s great. It’s camaraderie, you know, that’s fantastic. But if you really want to succeed? Not your goal. You need to move your desk. After he told me that I came out, I unplugged my monitor. I got my power ship that took out all my cords as kind of looking you what you do and that’s it down. Just I’m gonna move my desk. It’s need no need to concentrate and stuff. And so, as I was doing that as I was unplugging all the cords and stuff, different guys asked me, What do you do it? What’s going on? That and I where my desk waas where I wanted to go, I literally had to walk past basically everyone on my team. It was like this final gauntlet that I had to run during my stuff doing. I know I just I needed kind of focus in, and I wanted, you know, it’s kind of hard to hear and, you know, I just want O move my desk on. I moved it to the very outer part where we were allowed sit because there were some desks when they ask us to reserve people that came in infrequently, so we weren’t supposed to set up permanent shop. So I put my desk where I was isolated, basically. And man, I took a lot of flak for that on a constant basis, but especially those first few days. Oh, look at bread. You know, too good for us or doesn’t wanted it. And it, uh, and it it was harking back to something that a football coach and be teacher told me. They said too often will we find this When athletes try harder and put in extreme effort, it embarrasses the other people, and it makes him feel self conscious. And so, rather than trying to rise to that level, they would rather stay in mediocrity and just simply throw stones at that person trying to bring them now. And I’m not trying to elevate myself. It’s just that was a conscious effort I made. Not that I was a jerk. I didn’t walk out on the eye and moving my desk. It was more of just a silent. This is what I’ve got to do for me, right? My productivity increased dramatically. We brought on this new lead engine and I started sucking in the most amount of leads and contacts and things because I was aggressively going out prospecting prospect prospect, which you have to do is always to be successful in sales and within. I would say that I think it was within that fiscal year I went into the boss and I said, Look, I I feel I’m putting it out all out on the table. I don’t miss this in this to prove that I could be an enterprise with What else do I need to prove to you? What else do I need to do to earn that position? And he mentioned moving my desk was was a very impressive movie, definitely fulfilled on what my mentor had said it would. And the only thing is he Did you stop showing up wearing, You know, Superman T shirts and jeans need to dress for the party you want, which is a whole other potential recording the whole separate episode. But it literally came from moving my desk because it became a physical separation, but also a mental separation, and it eventually became something that other people, people that want to be they began to mimic that they I slaved theirselves because they recognized like waste. Not only did he do this this and this. But he isolated himself from group and he was able to be consequent when that promotion came. One of the things that they did was we recognize that all of you folks, because there was a row of desks along the window and we all huddled in the centre where it’s kind of dark, and the boss said, I know that those have been coveted desks. We’ve asked to leave him open. Those of you have been promoted can go and pick your desk on the on the outside. So not only was moving your desk good, it then became a status. So it’s I think it’s profound right now. And it obviously your whole mantra is move your desk. But literally I found that to be successful. Now that’s that’s not always possible for people. And that’s just it just happens to be a very rial approach. But for me it represented a mental I I was trying to separate myself from the pack, and so I had to do that, and that could probably take a lot of different shaper for some people. Just, you know, I know speaking for my generation that well, you know, what when they’re interviewing for a job? What’s your culture like? You know? Oh, we have an X box that people can play. We have a pool table or pick bomb table. Whatever it might be, that’s That’s fine. That’s great. Those aren’t bad. But if you really want to move your desk, maybe you you don’t go and play people. You stay diligent when other people tend to. I think too often. Self award for minimal effort and output. Oh, you know, you said it’s really want meeting. You know, I think we need to come on. What on other people have the opposite problem, right? I was an environment where there was no space for meetings, so we started to have him during lunch. Also see was mode where you were just meeting meeting meaning and they all had agendas and everything. But it would have been in our best interest to stop having a meeting once in a while and just wait person. So it shows the different angles that everyone comes to this from, But I like how you saw how moving physically sometimes helps with moving your mind. This Versace, sometimes moving your mind, translates into moving your desk, which in your case you knew that the result you wanted could come from taking a physical action. And it’s like it. Is it crabs or lobsters? Where if one of them tries to climb and get out of the basket, they all pull them down. Your story reminded me of that where you want anyone to get ahead so they’ll pull them down versus figuring out how to get out with um, right you love with? Yeah, it’s ample that Yeah, it’s it’s just a mentalities and being in sales, there’s we’re unique position and that we have very clear metrics that can determine our value to the organization for marketing harder. Mark being tried to say, Well, you know, we got this many impressions or Leeds or blah, blah, blah. But still, we know that at the end of the day it goes to sales. And so it’s up to sales to make that happen for HR for other things, we try and create metrics. But if we’re being honest, they’re not as concrete as how much business did you grieve? How many calls in debate, how we immediate that you did it like sales is a clear on where your success and that can be an interesting environment. I’m not saying be a robot. That’s not ever what I’m lobbying for. I just think that if you really want something might have a sacrifice, it might take some sacrifice to get there, and that’s OK. My relationships with my co workers were not damaged. I feel personally, and I’ve been told by leaders that it elevated the culture by me doing because of my performance. Already, it kind of looked at me as a quasi leader by doing that and then seeing increased performance and then seeing how management viewed me and treated me better. Yes, you could say that rose the bar. And whenever you raise the bar, some people fall below it. The word flushed out or some people rise to the occasion. And again, I’m not saying Hey, I’m fantastic. I did all this stuff, but it it was indicative of a new change to raise that level, and I could look back and see that as a turning point in my career. From there, I’ve been able to make dramatically or money and I have increased. I’ve gotten promoted twice now lead entire team for North America. All that started, I think just well what I like. Well, like a few things story. But I like how when you had the courage to take a step into the unknown, even though your mentor was saying you didn’t quite know if that was really fulfill anything, right that you did it. You have the courage to take the step on the people that air. The naysayers suddenly go. Wait. You started to perform and leaders air looking well upon this, it’s almost like you created a safe space for them to go. Maybe I should have the courage to take a step, too. And then, of course, while you’re having the courage you’re starting to perform, that courage is turning into confidence, which then prepares you for your next level of growth. And, of course, since you’ve taken that stuff done, the hard embarrassing or whatever saying walking by everybody to spot. It’s almost like it gives you evidence and a history to look back on to go. You know what I’ve done this before. It worked out fine and even well, but I take the next step. It will be fine, too. And even though along the way, you’re still gonna have your thoughts, right? Like recently, you had all your thoughts. Oh, they’re gonna think I’m too young to lead. Oh, this of that. And yet you still got to my ovary had thoughts about courage, and you keep pressing forward and you have obtained the next level of outcomes or results that you want. And then what’s what’s need to see is you said, you know, there’s gonna be sacrificing hard work, but there’s a point when you’re getting the results you want for that sacrifice and hard work. I know it can be fun, right? You said you stay up, but now you’re working on presentations. You think through how to present it all that it starts to be fun, hard work. You can see how it’s gonna help yourself on others. It becomes a passion, right? It’s Ah, uh I mean, look at this, right. And you know, our our business at its core. We yourself dating yourself, Really? And it was thought that I was in the dream. I mean, it’s one of those things. You you grow up as a kid. Oh, man. if I could work for Nike, how cool I could get behind that. I did it. I love it. I never thought that I would really love selling photo maps. But when you start to believe something’s hard work and sacrifice, that becomes a habitual and then to your earlier point your biggest challenge being balanced with life, right? The other things you care about, Yeah, the other things you actually care about more for sure, but this is definitely something. I’m passionate about. Us talking with a colleague just recent last week, they said, You know, I I I asked him point blank. Look, I am someone that thrive on feedback and whether it’s constructive or just blown sunshine, whatever it is, I use that to try to improve and get better. And I’m curious what you’ve heard from the team. You know, common things that teams think I could be doing better. And he said, You know, it’s funny because whenever anybody has said anything remotely negative, which is where about you, compliment? No, Hay said. It’s it’s usually because they don’t understand you, and he and I have worked very closely over the past year, he said. they just don’t understand that where you’re coming from is a place of extreme passion, and they don’t necessarily have that themselves. And so they take that as well. Threats being tensor he’s Why is he just so not almost a gung ho? Just Whoa. But he’s like, Serious. What’s up with that guy? And he said, I just tell people you don’t understand. He is always on his brain is always on when it comes to this stuff and because he loves it, he cares about when I got this job. That’s not something I necessary had a passion for it. But it’s been realized this. You work hard and see results and you start getting income or a younger. In my case, being work from home, we have much more flexibility. So you know Hey, you know what? I got to take this call, but I can also take the kids of the pool and while they swim on to take the school, I mean, that’s what a blessing at least I consider in my life. And that came from working heart and becoming passionate about what I do. Some people mistake that passion for brown nosing or being a jerk or being cocky or whatever. They want a label that ass. But if you know that you’re coming from the right place and the right people know that you know what, You just have a passion for this and you learn, if properly, you gonna find a lot of right. And when you’re talking about that, it’s the realization that everyone’s getting decide what to think about you based on what’s going on in their own head, right and on. As I experienced that, moving into entrepreneurship when people were responding to me when I said, Yeah, I’m quitting, including a very stable government job and everyone’s responses were different and I started realized, Oh, they’re responding based upon how they feel about money, how they feel about security and had very little to do with me. But what’s interesting now said, you’ve just moved your desk in the last couple of weeks is now. You are going to be on a roll where you are continuing to influence as you have in the past. But now you actually have positional authority to do so and how to translate influencing and caring with the actual boss responsibility for a team of people that air performing and how to discover what they’re passionate about, how to discover what they’re purposeful about, to hone in to that so they can start performing their best work. This is interesting time where you have all of your passion and your purpose that drives you now figuring out how to provide that space for those that import to you at the same time and trying to like the a similar fire that they trying to get them to be passionate. I mean, if there’s someone that’s just this is another job, I wanna help them get on board or ask them to find passion somewhere else. If that balance it’s going back what? Sign out. Having empathy. So find the balance between empathy but also being that leader. Yes, that’s something that I have been concerned about. ISS. I don’t want to come into hot and heavy. I don’t want my passion being misunderstood, but the same time we need people on board read people off us. That one here. That’s a balance I want to find. Okay. Are you are you doing this because I’ve asked you to an under boss or because you believe in it, and you respect not my official authority that comes with my title. But the fact that I have been here much longer than you have and have been, you know, successful and have done this I’ve done your job before and I want them to respect me for the ladder. I want them to recognize that. But it’s interesting balance. Yeah, the constant process, they think. But through it, we all grow. Yeah, exactly. If you know, if we’re all kind of working out the kinks. I was telling my my new boss, Now, the BP today I said, Look, this way we’re gonna have a one on one and talk about numbers He said, I just want people getting pipelines, clean stuff. I said my least favorite day of school was the first day of school, and my my least favorite day of gym class was the first day of gym class. I’m a pretty active person, and as a child especially, I love to move around in place sports gym class. On the first day, we got to do no movement. It was all about orientation going through the syllabus. I’m gonna hate it when I think back on it. I still hate it is we couldn’t actually do anything, place it. Look, our team has just finished the first day of gym class. We have gotten through the organization. We have set the expectations. We have rolled out the rules of engagement. Now we’re ready to go and it’s it’s something, you know, looking at it. It’s a necessary part, right? But I just We’ll get five picked clean and everything like that. But first we had to go through orientation. I know that nobody likes it, but we’re gonna get there and those things will follow. And it’s just it’s this analogy that just catered because I was thinking about trying to be the first day of gym class. You were going to say that it was the unknown, like you had this anxiety and expectation about a size surprise when you said, you just hate the sitting that apart and Chinea three, which I relate to, you know, I compare it sometimes to the academic training versus doing the work right. Some of us are better getting in and doing the work and then as we need answers going out and learning from academic stuff and pulling in information. And resource is we want to start the work. Otherwise feels your relevant. Am I sitting here learning this need to be able to apply it to something without applying it to something it coz in one year of the next? I don’t know if I’ll be able to retrieve it. This time was wasted. E I mean, I I’ll be honest. I got my first job. I’ve lied. They asked me if I was familiar with the Microsoft Suite. Said Sure, I had never opened excel a day in my life before that. And one of the first things I had to Dio was do some work in Excel and luckily everyone was too busy to really take notice. But I applied myself and I researched and Googled. How do I do this in excel? How do I do this on this? Where now I’m not proficient. You know, I’m not claimed to be an excel expert, but I can get what I need out of the program and function fairly well. I’m not a V look up guy. I’m not a pivot table person. I’m not that advanced if I need to go look it up, figured out. But yeah, I think anyone knows everything about excel. The more you learn, the more you realize there’s in there. Okay, It’s It’s almost glossed over but advanced programs with your But I do not mean to your point. I just said no, I’m gonna figure it out and I gotta make it work. So it definitely wasn’t the fear of the unknown for me, it was just Oh, my goodness, that’s both way. Have a syllabus to play Volleyball was doing these things. Let’s just know it. I think sometimes my tendency has been Oh, I learned this new thing in a book. I like that idea immediately. Apply it rather than like that. This is great. How does this work with what I’m doing right and swing the pendulum way. How do I How do I incorporate that with, you know, being a dog? Jason, get car, right. Oh, shiny objects, right. Signing object. Oh, this person said they want to pay us like a $1,000,000 0 let’s find all those other types of people and we go chase that we start to kind of rules and then someone finds a deal in another. Industrially, we go out and my CEO made a good point after recognizing this, said I think way need Teoh. I’m paraphrasing. Am I adding my own language here? But we do have a litmus test for opportunities that come in. Are the opportunistic or are they strategic? The focus of what we’re doing now? Most leadership team is developing strategy where we’re gonna put our focus. And that’s where a lot of our focus energy time investment should be. But occasionally deals come up that are opportunistic, not part of the strategy. We push him aside and say, No, no, we don’t do that but we consider them more, and we we make a determination cases My team, I run the gun. The public technology, which technically includes the federal government for America, federal government, is its own ball of wax and based off of our business and what we dio we don’t align very well with those needs. On a strategic level, federal government is not part of our strategic vocals. We must give local, municipal, local county, regional government, state government. That’s the strategy. If someone like the National Guard comes and says, Hey, need a small one off deal from You know, we want to sign up with you guys for this. This and this. We’re not asking you toe service. The entire Army National Guard will be special. Things great will take that deal. There’s no part of a strategy that’s just an opportunistic. You’re narrowing your knees so that you can offer the best possible value to the And when we’re running off, trying to please everyone, we lose that we lose Aneesh. We lose the value we’re providing to the main people, right? We right, but our energy to think I mean, I found that with coaching so far, but I’m glad I have done different types of coaching you. Oh, I really get empowered and energized when I work with people that are trying to a level at work or is an entrepreneur. Can we do food? Can we do other issues that come up or people are working through shirt? But the most value I can provide is in this needs because this is where I have the passion and the purpose and experience and that war wounds drop movie, and I want to put those two get yes, right. That’s the one of things I told the guys, because I mean, is as we talked about I am the second youngest person yet the all report to me, right? And I worried a lot about that. But I said, Look, having been here a while and doing all this used me as a resource. I know where the potholes are. I know where the rabbit holes in. A lot of these cases let me help you. You know, let me help you navigate that. It’s the end of the day going back to when I mentioned earlier about clear metrics, my proven track record over the years here at this company, of exceeding my quota and in sales, that’s That’s paramount. Yeah, if you don’t believe me, look at my numbers. I’m here to help, and it’s not a cocky thing. It’s truly I want to help you navigate the river sticks. Okay, And phone man, I’m not asking for much. I’m just asking you to and and one thing, they’re going back to the focus on on customers, something that Dad always reminded you. The customer is not always right, but the customer’s always have customers. Remember that part of the phrase I wish I had, so they’re not always right. We shouldn’t let them dictate everything. We should always handle it, knowing that they’re always the customer. And he adds on to that quote and remember, they have your money. So if you remember those two thoughts, I think they’re fundamentally like the customers. Not always, right, always the customer. And by the way, they have your mind. You should put them at the forefront of all of your internal discussions. How we did it, right for the customer. How are we focusing on that? And in so doing, they will give us money how we get people’s money. I don’t think that’s the right approach. It’s how do we improve? You know, it’s It’s something. Make it so they want to give us their money. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So where is it? It’s a transaction with or not like, or shares this check. Uh, be grudging. E have to give it to you. It’s more of a man. You you totally earned this. It’s almost like a tip like Hey, you have grace were helping us out. This is a no raider equally to that, it’s focusing on your own people and getting them lined. Bottom vision. It’s something where our sales process is one that I helps buying tune. But I also inherited when I worked at a previous company for a large networking and telecom client. And they said, our sales strategies begin focusing on business rather than selling. Solution solutions is one of my least favorite words business here all the time, and I almost can I can’t read the about section on the game for companies drives me batty. We provide enterprise solutions that Mabel success and Dr Bottom Line, and it’s all the same stuff. So they said, trying to focus on the desired business out and it changes based on who you’re talking to returning to see it CEO the director of i t Are you talking to the head of sales? Who you got because it’s gonna be a different is this maybe here the person that will bring all those opinions and insights together toward an actual thing that will help their business? Well, you know, cases, coin. One of our customers, they’ve been footing the bill basically for our technology and they said, Look, we want to create this This group we want full buy in from all the county departments. So I said, Let’s do it, Get me on a meeting will go in front of the county board So they bring me in front were one of the agenda items on official county business and I presented to the county council on this is what the assessor’s offices memorizing. We all should be doing this together and we should be working together. And this is the benefit for everyone. And while the contract will increase significantly, the individual costs for all of you will go down, the value will dramatically increase. And it was this vision that the assessor had for quite some time we were able to help start to realize that jumpstarted. Now they’re super engaged with people moving towards that common goal. We’re doing something. It’s best for them. We’re delivering on the desired business outcomes right? Which was collaboration? Yes, That means his budget is freed up a little more blah, blah, blah. But overall, it was want to collaborate, and it was a fantastic appearance and we’re still going through it. We’re tracking towards that we’re seeing a lot of occasions with. But if we had gone in there and said, Look, we could be X percent cheaper than your competitors, we can provide, You know, one more collection, that and we’re just looking what it well, what’s broken with your business, and how can we fix it rather than where do you want your business to go? Where do you want to be? Own aspiration? How do we get you there? Part of that will be solving some of your issues. But that’s how the folks our focus is your ideal state. How do we get you to your ideal state? And I reckon you’ve been trying to go from a to Z and 1/2. I’m proposing. We still get you to see it just might be a path. I have one last question for you because I you’re in lots of sports growing up. So you had coaches. You’ve mentioned mentors and in different jobs, and you mentioned coaching also, but we’ve been going through this kind of coaching process recently. Is there anything that stands out to you that’s different? The same when other things you’ve done cause you’re already someone who’s performing and improving it and seeks input for people. What has stood out to you from going through a little more formal coaching process? Perhaps the fact that my perception of professional coaching waas very methodical, process focused black tie type and granted, admittedly and full disclosure were siblings. So there’s a familiarity there, although you’ve always been really good at being separate that and remained relatively neutral. But I didn’t realize how much emotional psychological aspect of coaching there would be. I thought it be okay, well, let’s talk about how you structure meetings like I thought I’d be very operational. Focus wrapped. Then you with your thoughts. What? Let’s Let’s try to understand your emotions when this happens. It was beneficial, but also validating because I’m someone that, as we talk about, is very passion driven. You know, I try to focus on the customer. I try to focus on people, and when you first started, I kind of thought, Is this coaching? This feels more like therapy. I even said that to you, but that’s good. Because of the end of the day, we’re all people try to interact in a certain way with different types, relationships, business or otherwise with other human beings. That is interaction with other humans. So a lot of that comes down to working on the very human level. And so for me it was a minor part validating but a big part eye opening. Say, Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, business coaching really comes down to understanding yourself. Why is thinking a certain way? Why talk a certain way, how you operate, what’s the root cause of that? And if we can get down to that root cause about a city, change it. But maybe just understanding it and an understanding you could better that was huge. You mentioned coaches I’ve had in the past. It’s also been inspirational, obviously, because you’re my oldest sister. I look up to you for a lot of reasons, but it reminds me of the best coach I ever had have for only one year. And that was in high school rugby. He is a tiny little guy, and he had damaged his me in a way. Torrey. He almost always need to wear a knee brace. When he wanted Teoh anything, he came and he asked us. He asked the team, What is your goal? What is your aspiration this season? We said all we want to win state. It’s OK, you say that. That’s where a lot of work are you willing to work with me and put in the effort? I ask you to put in to make that happen, because if you are not, I’m out. Was this ultimatum. So I am willing to put in the work if you are. But if you’re no longer limited, I’m gone And we all kind of looked each other said We’re in were in and that meant we had a run a law and he was one that we would have to run like nearly two miles or one mile as a warm up any time, Gus. But the interesting thing is, many times he would run with us, and he was almost always last cause you know, the guys 50 at this point or something, that he has a bone. Me. But you knew if you were slacking because you could hear the squeak of his brace, right? Like coaches catching me, that’s embarrassing. I cannot let this stand, so you know it was inspirational. He would say, OK, we gotta do it thing over their age Run over and he would get down. And the rule was we all have to do push ups until the last guy finally got where we’re moving and he would do himself, you know? Was he the fastest faster? No. No, But he did it with us. Best coach ever had we get on us sometimes it didn’t it? Yes, but it also swallowed up with this is you know, this is why this is, you know, did it. And he was explaining things, and I he’d come down on us and then he’d help us understand why you contrast that with and we ended up winning state. And despite having the least athletic, natural talent of any team out there, you should You should have seen the motley crew of guys that we had on our teeth. So he truly was able to pull your uncle. Still, it’s gonna make gold out of straw. You contrast that when I went to college and we had the second best program in the nation for rugby, coaches were too. I just did not enjoy them at all. They were not inspiring they they created a culture of fear. I was afraid to screw up at any moment and get yelled at for it and terrorist and humiliated. And it just tenses you up and a lot of scenarios because you’re so afraid to make a mistake that you end up making steaks. Yeah, he was a fantastic that coat. So that pulled a lot of lessons from that is that leaders got a lead and what you ask your team to do, you’ve gotta dio and might need to come down on somebody. But you always need to Then follow that up with this is this is why And this is how we get better And, you know, some boards encouraged So in this coach, and that comes again to human and emotional. So this coast, he has been really eye opening in that regard. Thanks again, Brett, for being here today and it we learned lots of great tips about leadership and moving our desk and being willing to be coached would love to have you back again. Hope everyone has a great day and good luck in your work. Thanks for listening to the show today. If you enjoyed it. I’d love if you’d write a review and share the show with your friends. Sign up for a weekly nudge at move your desk dot com. See you next Monday.